Hondaklubben

Setup:
Full-Race stage 2 turbokit
Garret t3-t60-1
stock fuelines
Walbro 255lph
Stock ignition
Cp pistons 9:1 81,5mm bore
eagle rods
stock crank
B16a2(Threw away the p73) Ported head done by us.
Ferrea valvetrain
Own choosen custom spec cams
3" custom sidepipe exhaust
edelbrock intake
stock throttlebody
SAE corrected

NOW WITH NEW NUMBERS 527,6WHP @9100 WITH BOOST CONTROLLER SET AT 0,9BAR


We had serveral ignition problems that would not allow us to pass 7500rpm, so we set the dynapac at 7500rpm
the hondata read about 18-19psi
at 7500rpm it did 488,7whp on pumpgas with the powercurve still rising(torque flattened at about 7300rpm.
with a couple of hundred more rpm I believe we would pick up 10-30 more whp(maxing the turbo)

I will post up a dynovideo as soon as I have edited it(We havent even been able to post the results at our site as the car is freshly dynoed now.)



Some pictures of the car:













And dyno sheet, dont mind the axle torque I just forgot to change it before printing


Head






Im pretty happy since it is a stock bore/stroke setup and on pump gas.
We did the head work and suplyed with our custom stage 1 cams.
the bleed tap delivered unconsistand boost, meking the torque dip.

The dizzy had a rusty shaft and burned rotor, I cleaned the shaft and replaced the rotor, the issue is gone (At the road) maybe we do a re dynoing later this week to get a full pull.

Any particular reason that the P73 head was ditched? Just out of curiosity, since the squish-areas are better in the p73 than p30.

Fina siffror! Sjukt fet ITR!

M Scotte skrev:Any particular reason that the P73 head was ditched? Just out of curiosity, since the squish-areas are better in the p73 than p30.

No you are wrong, I think you are mixing the p72 with the p73 the combustion chamber on the "p73" head is simular to the b16a2 head after all both are the same cast and are marked with pr3
The p72head from the Integra GSR has a smaller chamber since it is quenched.
But that was newer an issue.

The p73 is BTW a stockported Head sitting on the type R engine but the ports on the intake and exhaust has been taken out too much material on the "wrong" places so I really get better flow with the untutched b16head.
Also the valveseats are much easyer to wirk with on the b16a2 head.

Nice power!

Is it sleeved?

malkolm666 skrev:Nice power!

Is it sleeved?

Stock sleeves

18-19psi you say, what s that? 1.3Bar? You´re brave man, so brave! (Y)

Nice power!
I hope your planning to sort out the ignition. I mean how fun is it to drive when you hitt full bost 5200rpm and rev limit is 7300rpm.
And why don't you guys sleeve the block when you allready have spend so much money on the car? Sleeve it to 84mm and gain some more hp aswell. And you want have to think about sleeve cracking. Cuz on s much hp the sleeves are gonna crack soon or later.

Sorry I mixed up the heads. I was thinking P72 GSR

Atec skrev:<!--quoteo(post=497619:date=7 Aug 2008, 10:50:41:name=malkolm666)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malkolm666 4 7 Aug 2008, 10:50:41) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=497619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nice power!

Is it sleeved?

Stock sleeves
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

1,25bar

Welen XLR8 Performance skrev:A good tune and kepping the revs under 9k and I say it is pretty safe.. People underestimates how importante a good tune is.

Nice itr.. It should be extreamly fun to play around with. What happend to the tourqe after 5500 rpm? Problem holding boost?


Almost as much power as Xchais b16 that I built and tuned a few months ago.. :whip: :thumbup:

The crx made 530 hp with weel spin @ 1,6 bar, sc61 sleeved to 84mm, CTR cams, pump gas and civinco piggy back. The IC piping tuched the ground so we couldnt strap it down.

Back doore style IC, a better ecu and moore boost and maybe e85 and more agressive cams are what we consider for the winter.

The ignitionproblem was fixed in the workshop after dynoing.
Now it pulls HARD untill 9000k I had even som weelspin at 4th gear and 170km.
Did you ever get whp number on your crx Welen?

We estimate about 560Flyweel hp in this car.
And hope for 500whp at the same boost pressure when we redyno it.

We did a clocktiming on a closed track 100-200 is done in 5seconds with two persons in the car at 1,1bar.

Take it out to the dragstrip! :thumbup:

YASH skrev:Take it out to the dragstrip! :thumbup:

It is really a auto X/streetcar haha... :biglaugh2:

We did a redynoing with a electronic boost controller and finally we did the high rev meashures.
I was right the head flows well over 9000revs.

In comparison with the old head same setup bottom end only Stock factory ported ITR head the powercurve dropped dead after 8000rpm.
at 8000rpm it did 318whp 0,68bar(10-11psi)

with the new head it did 355,4whp at 8900(Powercurve still rising but we did not want to rev the bottom end eny more)
but the boost was set at suprisingly low 0,5-0,6bar(7-8psi boost)

7-8psi 8900revs powercurve still climbing


We were also able to get boost a bit earlyer by removing the bleed valve in advantage of the electronic unit.

Too bad we could not hold a stable 1,25bar (18psi) pressure, to jump the 500+whp mark the boost was hitting the 19psi limiter if I tried to boost more than 0,9-1bar (13-14,7psi)
so we had to settle with 455,1whp at only 0,9bar(Boost jumping to 1bar and down) 13-14,7psi
And the head held its steam to 8900 without any problems.
(Power curve still rising)

13-14,7psi 8800rpm powercurve still climbing(Rev limiter now set at 9000rpm


Now we have almost 400whp from 5700-9000rpm(Revlimiter)
"Talk about long legs"


"Uploading the dynocharts at the moment"
I was shocked to see the results:
Here is the curve:

Welen XLR8 Performance skrev:Nice gain there on low boost.. The turbo seems way to small for that power level though. Torque just falling after it hits full boost.. Imagine if it held a flat torque curve after it hits full boost.. I guess you have pretty excesive back pressures in the turbo manifold. A larger turbine (hotside) and the gains should be huge..

Yes it is only the .63a/r housing

torque curve is very simular to the stock integras with toda exhaust and mugen airbox we have tuned,



But it reaches peak hp later, and allow the engine to breath at higher rpm.
I dont think the back presshure do too much diffrence here, and it should not be a problem before 23-27psi 1,3-1,6bar
After all if you see dyno at 13-14psi or 7, there is no diffrence in peak torque, and with too high backpressure it should occure earlier.
I am positivily shure if we redyno it with a three bar sensor allowing the slight boost spike at 1,2bar, we would reach 500+whp at 1,25bar at 8900rpmswithout any problems.
It was damn annoying to have to stop at 0,9bar because of the slight spiking in 1,2bar range hitting the boost cut at 19psi,

Welen XLR8 Performance skrev:That explains it then.. THe scaling on the torque curvs are fooling me a bit. I thought it said GM 3 bar map in the spec list but I must have confused it.. So you have a stock map sensor now? thougt those craped out as early as 10psi or something. On the flowsheets of the turbo one should see if you are in the ballpark and you are probbebly right.

Peak torque in my experiance are usualy where full boost hits and if it falls to bad it would benifit from a bigger turbo. If I use a to small turbo.. you think that peak tourq is before it hits full boost?


"After all if you see dyno at 13-14psi or 7, there is no diffrence in peak torque" I guess you mean at wich rpm that peak tourqe accours and not the amount of it?

I have experienced that when you push small turbos to the limit it will reach peak torque earlier.
At higher rpm the torque curve and peak power falls to the ground.
Becouse insuficent flow from the turbine side or it can be compressor side.

(So when you get too much backpressure the dynocharts looks wery diffrent than with the low backpressure.and peak power drops off to early)
As you probably know, with high backpressure the exhaust gas reverse back in to the intake runner, and in some cases the hot gases can make the engine detonate.

We have also done a lot of things to the head to prevent the phenomenon.

Anyways, I belive the problem lies elsewere, since the customer cheaped out with a gm 2,4bar sensor that really could not read past 19psi lol..
that is were we had to set the boost cut...
The thing is he did not want more than 400whp, and now he cry for 500whp before even had to drive it... guess numbers make ppl crazy :blink:

Welen XLR8 Performance skrev:I don get this? "it will reach peak torque earlier but at higher rpm " Maybe I'am missing something..

I think that exhaust gas reversation goes back in to the intake runner is more an effekt of the cams rather then the head design. Look at saab or volvos that has pretty small turbos and extream back pressures so they can spool the turbo and keep emissions down.. (thats why they get away with turboheaders that has terrible flow) They can have a peak boost at maby 0.7bar and 5 bar of backpressure.. To have them chiped is not a good ide..

Haha, Im sorry I rewrote the sentence now so it is more understandable lol...

Yes you are right, the camprofile is everything, but you can also configure the valves, valveseats and some of the intake/exhaust chanels to prevent the reverse flow.

A good example on cams, our custom stage 1 cams used here has a slight different profile than the stock R cams, to prevent reversation, but are limited by the slipper type rocker arms.

But you cannot compare a volvo head with this, remeber the volvo only need cams/head to flow 5-6000rpm, and that is easy to do with a mild cam.
here we need flow past 9000 + unough boost to make power and a fairly good powerband to do trackdays. three things into one make compromizes you know
well well, about my own project blockbuster..

The blockbuster car have rollertype rockers that made it possible for us to make a "square" cam that have wide duration but still can fight the reversation.

I just got the shipping number for the last parts I needed to start assemble it btw...

Welen XLR8 Performance skrev:<!--quoteo(post=498547:date=12 Aug 2008, 14:04:35:name=Atec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Atec 4 12 Aug 2008, 14:04:35) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=498547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=498536:date=12 Aug 2008, 13:09:43:name=Welen XLR8 Performance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Welen XLR8 Performance 4 12 Aug 2008, 13:09:43) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=498536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don get this? "it will reach peak torque earlier but at higher rpm " Maybe I'am missing something..

I think that exhaust gas reversation goes back in to the intake runner is more an effekt of the cams rather then the head design. Look at saab or volvos that has pretty small turbos and extream back pressures so they can spool the turbo and keep emissions down.. (thats why they get away with turboheaders that has terrible flow) They can have a peak boost at maby 0.7bar and 5 bar of backpressure.. To have them chiped is not a good ide..

Haha, Im sorry I rewrote the sentence now so it is more understandable lol...

Yes you are right, the camprofile is everything, but you can also configure the valves, valveseats and some of the intake/exhaust chanels to prevent the reverse flow.

A good example on cams, our custom stage 1 cams used here has a slight different profile than the stock R cams, to prevent reversation, but are limited by the slipper type rocker arms.

But you cannot compare a volvo head with this, remeber the volvo only need cams/head to flow 5-6000rpm, and that is easy to do with a mild cam.
here we need flow past 9000 + unough boost to make power and a fairly good powerband to do trackdays. three things into one make compromizes you know
well well, about my own project blockbuster..

The blockbuster car have rollertype rockers that made it possible for us to make a "square" cam that have wide duration but still can fight the reversation.

I just got the shipping number for the last parts I needed to start assemble it btw...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sure a to small turbo makes peak tourqe earlier but it also makes peak boost earlyer.. It would have been intresting to see a log on backpressure boost tourqe and hp. That turbo is fore sure on the small side.. But if you have gone with a bigger one that keeps the tourqe flat at that tourqe level it would have maked a ton more power. But i would have taken alot longer to spool also so it is a trade of between powerband and peak hp..

I did not compare the volvo heads and honda heads flow wise.. Just how you can make the cams work with no reversation and high backpressure. To adress these things with the head design is to fix it in the wrong end but Iám sure it helps some but If it is even worth it?... Well that is what all head porters argue about..

If you design the heads valves, valveseats and some of the intake/exhaust chanels to prevent the reverse flow I´m sure it is a tradeof of power.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It is not a trade of power infact to eliminate reverse intakeflow is a powergainer, or else we would not have done it.

Here is a movie of the car, it contains a lot of bad humor

<a href="" target="_blank"> :biglaugh2: :biglaugh2:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you design the heads valves, valveseats and some of the intake/exhaust chanels to prevent the reverse flow I´m sure it is a tradeof of power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What is the point of good flow if it is exhaust reversing into the intake, remember exhaust is a inert gas that cannot be burned. And THAT is a trade of power when exhaust is filling the chamber instead of oxygen

Welen XLR8 Performance skrev:Yes that is right but to configer valves, valveseats and some of the intake/exhaust chanels for that is in my opinion to compensate for bad cam choise..

No It is not.. it is a "addition" to the cam design. 355whp at 7psi shows that it is working:)
It only affects the lowlift intakeflow, so that the exhaustgasses have trubble reversate when scavenging. but exhaust channels flow even better than before at low lift.

To make a cam breath over 9k you need more duration(aka bigger cam) than a 5k engine.
the honda slipper rockers are limited due to the slipper rocker arms, making the "Ultimate cam" difficult to design, due to rocker and or cam wear.

the roller cams we have designed with a instant/shortterm close and opening rate, it have a very long/highlift high duration. without reversating becouse of the fast closing of the intake valve.
it can breath over 13.000rpm and still be used in turbo application.

You now know the setup.
here is an summary and the new 2009 goal with the car:
we are planning to tune up the car to about 530whp..

Ive started a new tuningshop in drammen, and we hold a 4wd dynapac,we also have gearbox and suspension tuning to offer along with headporting engine building and tuning.

The company are called in-tec motorsport.

here are some pictures







Our main problems at the track was infact insuficent crankcase ventilation so we are about to rebuild this now, the car has to be ready and retuned to max power, we hope to see about 530whp @ 18-20psi around 9000-9300rpm.
that is about what this turbo can do, everything will be done on pumpgas, the car have to be finish in about 6 days.

by then we have to rebuild CC vent, bleed/change brakefluid, change oil, wire up a new AVCR and tune it at our dyno to our satisfaction, then cornerweight it and adjust all suspension angles and stiffness to suit the track we are riding 12th september, there will be Norways biggest car event so it better work as we want .
since this is not a drag setup engine nor suspensionwise, we are aiming for as much average hp as possible, the engine whas therfore designed work untill about 9500 before powerdrop so that it will have a long peak curve to ride on around the track, the car will also be cornerweighted, and suspension adjusted for track.

for the crankcase we simply milled and tapped new treads so that we could fit AN couplings to the stock Crankcase plugs(Did not have time to wait 3-4 weeks on a couple of cuplings from oversea)





For the catch can I did a teardown I was not satisfyed with the design, I had to fit a baffle inside it and prepped it for the AN couplings,Practically the vent can was turned upside down, so that the two inlets now was bottom of the can, by milling new top and bottom lids I could make the can just how I wanted it, and now it should work as it should.

The can did only had two top nipples and a drainplug in the bottom that would cause an overflow like it did last year.

Now that the fittings are placed in the bottom of the can, the can will drain back oil when engine is shutoff, to prevent overflow.It will be placed as high as possible for the same reason.

Here is a couple of pictures of our dyno room, this is what we worked our ass off to build past 9 months:

Service 10w 60 Gulf racing oil


On with some decals:

-

A little question. was this Teg bought from sweden?


/S

EG_project skrev:A little question. was this Teg bought from sweden?


/S

I dont know the history from the car before it was modified, but I can asshure you, you would not reconize it if it was

Atec skrev:<!--quoteo(post=565938:date=27 Sep 2009, 19:52:16:name=EG_project)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EG_project 4 27 Sep 2009, 19:52:16) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=565938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A little question. was this Teg bought from sweden?


/S

I dont know the history from the car before it was modified, but I can asshure you, you would not reconize it if it was
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hehe. Was just qurious. Is the sideskirt and rear lower bumper added by u? Because my friend sold his Teg to norway around 4 years ago i think. And it had poloshed rollcage blue bucketseats and this bodykit on it. And its condition was verry nice. So just wanted to see if this could be it

EG_project skrev:<!--quoteo(post=565941:date=27 Sep 2009, 20:16:29:name=Atec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Atec 4 27 Sep 2009, 20:16:29) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=565941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=565938:date=27 Sep 2009, 19:52:16:name=EG_project)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EG_project 4 27 Sep 2009, 19:52:16) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=565938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A little question. was this Teg bought from sweden?


/S

I dont know the history from the car before it was modified, but I can asshure you, you would not reconize it if it was
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hehe. Was just qurious. Is the sideskirt and rear lower bumper added by u? Because my friend sold his Teg to norway around 4 years ago i think. And it had poloshed rollcage blue bucketseats and this bodykit on it. And its condition was verry nice. So just wanted to see if this could be it
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your curiosity